Lay Lie Lay Lie Lay Lie Lay Lie Lay Lie Lay Lie
On April 23, 2005 | 9 Comments | Uncategorized |

I was partially raised by a grandmother who was fastidious about language. She was brilliant– excelling in math and language skills and an artist to boot. She was very keen on my having good language skills: I remember my older sister and I (or is it “me”?), who couldn’t have been more than 9 and 7 at the time, standing next to her in the den in the waning hours of a summer afternoon, receiving careful instructions as to the differences between “lay” and “lie.”

I didn’t get it At All. Transitive and intransitive what? I listened very carefully, very politely. Grandma was very earnest about this, just as she was about the Lord Jesus, and I knew I should be paying attention. I remember afterward, going to get paper and a pencil, and writing out “lay” and “lie” over and over again in my Absolutely Best Printing, and then showing it to her, proudly. I thought she would be so pleased. And I’m sure she was pleased, because she was the kind of grandmother who was pleased with me in general. But I also knew from her reaction that I Hadn’t Gotten It. Not really. No.

I don’t remember when I actually did get it. Sometime in high school, I think. It’s a tricky one, no doubt about it. Right Lynne? (That’s in case she’s reading this.) Many people don’t have it now, in their thirties, or even their forties, or Beyond. It’s Hard, and not only when it comes to distinguishing the transitive and intranstive part. The conjugations of “lay” and “lie” are downright awkward; they don’t make sense; you can get along just fine without bothering to bother, because bothering can just be so darned difficult.

And really. Does it Matter?

I try to let go of these things. I know, I know, I know. Language is a living thing. It can’t be contained. It’s used too quickly. We function with the jist of things; we create new words; we use old words in new ways; we don’t bother- and don’t need to bother- with subtle permutations of tense and transitives. We’re lucky that we are able to keep even the semblance of an inventory of it all. My sister works for Merriam Webster. She Knows.

But there are some things I just don’t understand.

Like today, for example, when Bill was talking to the phattedcalf about U2 tickets (did I say U2 tickets? Oh My Yes!), and he said– and this is my husband, the brilliant one, who has a great vocabulary and Very Nice Diction– he said, “Can I get those tickets off you?”

Pardon?

Are these tickets “on” him? Attached to him somehow? Tape, maybe, or even staples? Glue? Are they wanting to be removed? And if one had U2 tickets (U2 tickets) attached to one, would one want them removed? Ever? But I digress….

What is wrong with the good old-fashioned preposition “from”? That’s always been effective there, yes? “Can I get those tickets from you?” See? That works.

It’s not a question of difficulty here. How much harder is “from” than “off”? I ask you! The words are the same syllabic length, share some of the same letters even, transition with equal ease from the other words in the sentence. And “from” Makes Sense, whereas “off” does not.

We take things “from” things, “from” people, right? Example: I take the car from the driveway, not off the driveway. But I take the dishes off the table, not so much from the table, because the dishes are on the table more than they are to the table, if you see what I mean.

Am I right?

Yes.

I don’t understand changes in language like this, or the ones that just Sound Stupid. Like this. This one kills me: “Where are you going to?” What’s with the “to”? Can I know? It is completely unnecessary, a useless appendage that clarifies nothing. The fact that one is going implies at least the semblance of a destination. Let’s just leave it at that.

Or this: “Where is he at?” What is wrong with “Where is he?” That’s fine, just fine, All By Itself. Of course, most often that question is asked this way: “Where‘s he at?” Did you see the contraction there? That little apostrophe “s” that combines so conveniently the “where” and the “is” into one sentence so that one doesn’t exhaust oneself with saying Two Separate Words? So then WHY – praytell – if we are contracting here for convenience’ sake, to shorten things– WHY must we then add the extra word? That stupid little preposition which is supposed to show the relationship between words but has absolutely No Word to express a relationship to? (I realize the irony here. I just ended that sentence with a preposition. Leave It Alone.) The “at” is left dangling, feeling- no doubt- foolish, awkwardly folding its hands (wouldn’t you?), blushing, not wanting to meet anyone’s gaze. It knows it is unnecessary. It is, moreover, ridiculous.

These are things I don’t understand.

Of course Bill’s decision to use “off” instead of “from” was not nearly so foolish or ignorant as all of that. It was just Different. A different word choice. Some residue from his days in the valleys of Western Pennsylvania. Colloquial is good. Or maybe he was just changing things up, trying to keep things interesting (as if U2 tickets– U2 tickets— aren’t interesting!). Maybe he was just Being Cool.

I am not cool.

Maybe that’s why I don’t understand.

Yes. That’s probably it.

Comments 9
tworivers Posted April 25, 2005 at1:46 am   Reply

You are not cool and so forth?! I am shocked!But, and this was something to get my mind around when I learned it, in ancient Greek ‘they’ used what might seem unnecessary prepositions, prepositions that were in fact also prefixes to the verb. katabaino kata something … the ‘kata’ is a prefix and a preposition. It’s as if they were saying (if it were English) “I understood under the roof,” or “I embarked onto the ship.” That last is more subtle – but the ’em-‘ prefix on embark surely means the same thing as the ‘onto.’ So, why don’t we simply say, “I embarked the ship?” Or (since ‘bark’ means ship) just “I embarked to Paris.” Or Greece.So, the unnecessary, redundant, and even repetitive extra word is not unique to this living language of US English, but was present in the now-dead language spoken by Herodotus. (ha ha – did you cringe at all those near-synonyms at the beginning of that sentence?)We are not the only language killers, it seems.

Rebecca Posted April 25, 2005 at3:57 pm   Reply

This is why the study of Latin is so satisfying (despite the fact that we are, at best, only guessing at how to pronounce it): Latin is a Dead Language. No more messing with it. How nice.And no, I did not even remotely cringe (or seize up) at the near-synonyms at the beginning of that last paragraph. One thing I love about language is the shades of meaning in words, so list away!

Anonymous Posted April 26, 2005 at4:13 am   Reply

I loved this treatise on language, Rebecca! Probably, mostly, because my name was mentioned. 🙂 And, of course you know that I still don’t get lay and lie, at least not every time, anyway. Mostly not around you, because then I suddenly become selfconscious about whether or not I am using it correctly! But now, since I am THIRTY-SIX, perhaps I shall be better about it. ~LL

Rebecca Posted April 26, 2005 at7:55 pm   Reply

Lynne,Happy Birthday (belated)!!! I hope it was happy. We’ll have to celebrate when you’re here.And Do Not Worry about the lay/lie thing. I thought we had this conversation a long time ago. It’s one of those quirks that makes you Lynne. If you used it correctly, I might not recognize you anymore. 🙂Can anyone– ANYONE — tell me which is correct in that first paragraph: “me” or “I” ???

Anonymous Posted April 28, 2005 at5:37 am   Reply

My love, prepositions are funny and really make very little sense. They are often random.I once had a Japanese colleague who had all sorts of trouble with them, mostly because, like my beloved wife, he sought to use them properly rather than simply imitating what he heard from native English speakers. The result was conversation that sounded very strange, but upon examination, made perfect sense: “I saw that in TV last night.” Yes, “in” makes more sense than “on” in that case, don’t you agree? But we just don’t say it. Once you realize prepositions are random, you’ll catch yourself using senseless ones all the time.For example:“For example” – why not “on example” or “to example” or “by example?”“On your own” – could very easily be “of your own” or “at your own.” Why is it “on your own” but “by yourself?” From now on, I’m using “on yourself.” “You can do that all on yourself” has sort of a twisted appeal to it, you must admit. Just try to stop me from using it. Or just try and stop me from using it, as we say in western PA.“From a distance” should be “at a distance.” I know they are both used, but “at” makes sense, “from” really doesn’t.“on time” – why not “by time” or “with time?” Is something sitting on time, like the u2 tickets are apparently sitting on Nat, waiting for me to take them off him? I hope Nat arrives on time so I can take the tickets off him. Then he can mount time again and ride off into the sunset. Or ride on into the sunset, whichever he prefers.There’s much more to this discussion than I can go into here. Or, there’s much more in this discussion than I can go onto here.Willow, lover of Birches

Rebecca Posted April 28, 2005 at12:51 pm   Reply

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Rebecca Posted April 28, 2005 at1:48 pm   Reply

Thanks, Willow, for your excellent insight. Because what you are so wittily proving is that, where we have prepositions that Make Sense, we most certainly Ought to use them.

Karen DiRuggiero Posted May 10, 2005 at6:42 pm   Reply

When you are confused about I/me, try this trick. Leave the other person out of the sentence, and say it again. Does it sound right? It works for me 99% of the time, and I only teach math. **Don’t you wish I’d stop adding comments to old blogs?

Rebecca Posted May 13, 2005 at2:54 am   Reply

Karen,You are right. That trick is one I often use, but for some reason it didn’t seem to work this time for me. But now it does.And you go ahead and make comments anytime, anywhere you’d like.

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